That part about Himmler’s office to combat homosexuals and abortion made me immediately connect it with the White Christian Nationalist’s who put us in the situation we’re in- ultimately for the very same reasons: gay marriage and abortion
I think this is a perfect explanation as to why Trans Men as seen as less of a threat to conservatives than Trans Women and why for the most part Trans Men are completely left out of trans conversations. The patriarchy will never see trans men as real men and thus will never find them threatening. You always hear conversations about "men in women's sports" and "men in women's bathrooms" but never the other way around, even though there's just as many trans men as there are trans women. Thank you for writing this!
When you slam down a group of people, they become more obvious. Things were always difficult for peoples' different sexuality. Clamping down and prosecuting doesn't change anything. It just goes underground.
It's a very difficult situation for many to cope with, even now in our enlightened times. These, like many of an unwelcomed religion, who deserve recognition, have a long road of burden to carry.
Great history, that was really thorough. Enjoyed it immensely. I was though a tad taken aback when I came across a sentence near the end that had gay men and paedophelia in the same sentence. I fully understand that gay does not equal paedophelia. Not everyone does. 🇨🇦
I hope no one misunderstands what I meant. (And it’s why I put the logic in quotes.) The reason given for persecuting gay men during the McCarthyism was supposedly because they were a blackmail risk. Which is ridiculous. It’s so ridiculous that if it were true, we should be applying that same logic to Epstein’s friends who are actual blackmail risks.
We will never know the level of blackmail Epstein used against pedophile men in positions of power.
Hi Carlyn - I had this great response going and it got lost in the ether. 😖😖😖 I had only mentioned it because people conflate two unrelated concepts, phrases, words and I thought that very simple minds would have us right back to gay=paedophiles. It’s also that I’ve noticed that seemingly “little” things seem to float in and stick - put in quotation marks aside. I did not certainly expect for you to hafta “answer” to it, but I am glad that you did. Appreciated the added history of how gays were crucified during McCarthyism. And your point about Epstein was so well taken. Am also very happy to have upgraded my subscription. Cheers my friend! 🇨🇦
A friend of mine was the lead example in Randy Shilts’ book , Conducted Unbecoming. He recovered from the military’s treatment of him, mostly by suppressing the memories. His interview with Shilts brought them all back. He did not recover from that.
Hi Teri - apologies being so tardy. I’ve sort of lost the point of the original piece. But wanted to respond to your post. If I’m assuming correctly, your friend is gay, was in the military, was horrifically abused, managed to survive through by blocking memories, but did not survive the emerging memories? I would be very interested if you could clarify - especially given the comment below. Thank you much. 🇨🇦
Was gay. They found gay porn in his footlocker & insisted that therefore he must be being blackmailed into revealing secrets. He was previously #1 in his class, cryptography. (this is all in the book) After the interview brought back the memories, he became alcoholic, lost his electrical engineering job and died decades ago.
I am so sorry to know that atrocity! I hadn’t had that history and did not know of the book. That’s just gutting on so many levels. I thank you so much, Teri!
The files were released and thoroughly reviewed. With a couple of high profile exceptions like Bill Gates and Larry Summers it appears to be a big nothing burger 🍔
Interesting. If you combine this with today's increasingly official support for transphobia (which as always about trans women - those born men - than about trans men), it all seems to come down to policing "inappropriate use of a penis".
The patriarchal sexual double standard operates differently for women than for gay men. (Women get hit on the basis of sex, gay men on the basis of homosexuality.) You briefly allude to the main (visible) angle of attack against lesbians: crackdowns on women who used dildos, or otherwise assume male prerogatives. But on discharges from the military, you've made a categorical error: there were far, far more males than females. If you look at the proportionality of discharges, not the raw numbers, you'll find that lesbians were discharged at much greater rates. This is well known, both for the mid-20th century "witch hunt" purges, and later, after 1980, it remained the pattern. See the General Accounting Office Report of 1992: "For example, between 1980 and 1990, the Navy, representing 27 percent of the active force, accounted for about 51 percent of the discharges; and women, representing 11 percent of the total active Navy force, accounted for 22 percent of those discharged." In other words, lesbians were expelled at double the rate as gay men.
Sorry but are you sure it's not because authoritarians already control women in their societies, where as gay men don't fit neatly into the authoritarian net or whatever so they need extra attention?
It was too painful to read all of it. This right there is proof RedPill community is nothing more than immature rage within patriarchy. Because this is what men’s rights activists should focus on. This is a legitimate grievance that touches men alone, discrimination that harms men alone. If the activists for men’s rights were honest, this: gay men being penalized - would be front and center of the discussion as it is alive and well today, pillory is not necessary when vigilantism exists unpunished and targets a dude who, gasp, takes it in the ass. This right here is your proof Red Pill don’t care about men -if they did, this would be their first fucking fight!!! I am a woman. I was hurt by men. I am outraged by this. I am outraged that gay men continue to be treated horrifically. I am aware nowadays lesbians are bullied, murdered and raped for who they are, as all LGBTQ+ people are. But this is proof patriarchy doesn’t give a shit about men. If it did - it would address rights of every man, so it would include gay men. But noooo. Patriarchy is interested only in protecting heteronormative men and women and republicanism only. What an incredible, amazing essay.
This is exactly what I am looking for when I came to Substack. This is true value. This is amazing.
No wonder so many men try so hard to perform “macho manliness,” since the alternative could be not only social disapproval but all the way up to being deadly.
That part about Himmler’s office to combat homosexuals and abortion made me immediately connect it with the White Christian Nationalist’s who put us in the situation we’re in- ultimately for the very same reasons: gay marriage and abortion
I think this is a perfect explanation as to why Trans Men as seen as less of a threat to conservatives than Trans Women and why for the most part Trans Men are completely left out of trans conversations. The patriarchy will never see trans men as real men and thus will never find them threatening. You always hear conversations about "men in women's sports" and "men in women's bathrooms" but never the other way around, even though there's just as many trans men as there are trans women. Thank you for writing this!
dear goddess, you're good, Carlyn !! 🙂
The whole thing is so hypocritical
When you slam down a group of people, they become more obvious. Things were always difficult for peoples' different sexuality. Clamping down and prosecuting doesn't change anything. It just goes underground.
It's a very difficult situation for many to cope with, even now in our enlightened times. These, like many of an unwelcomed religion, who deserve recognition, have a long road of burden to carry.
Great history, that was really thorough. Enjoyed it immensely. I was though a tad taken aback when I came across a sentence near the end that had gay men and paedophelia in the same sentence. I fully understand that gay does not equal paedophelia. Not everyone does. 🇨🇦
I hope no one misunderstands what I meant. (And it’s why I put the logic in quotes.) The reason given for persecuting gay men during the McCarthyism was supposedly because they were a blackmail risk. Which is ridiculous. It’s so ridiculous that if it were true, we should be applying that same logic to Epstein’s friends who are actual blackmail risks.
We will never know the level of blackmail Epstein used against pedophile men in positions of power.
Hi Carlyn - I had this great response going and it got lost in the ether. 😖😖😖 I had only mentioned it because people conflate two unrelated concepts, phrases, words and I thought that very simple minds would have us right back to gay=paedophiles. It’s also that I’ve noticed that seemingly “little” things seem to float in and stick - put in quotation marks aside. I did not certainly expect for you to hafta “answer” to it, but I am glad that you did. Appreciated the added history of how gays were crucified during McCarthyism. And your point about Epstein was so well taken. Am also very happy to have upgraded my subscription. Cheers my friend! 🇨🇦
A friend of mine was the lead example in Randy Shilts’ book , Conducted Unbecoming. He recovered from the military’s treatment of him, mostly by suppressing the memories. His interview with Shilts brought them all back. He did not recover from that.
Hi Teri - apologies being so tardy. I’ve sort of lost the point of the original piece. But wanted to respond to your post. If I’m assuming correctly, your friend is gay, was in the military, was horrifically abused, managed to survive through by blocking memories, but did not survive the emerging memories? I would be very interested if you could clarify - especially given the comment below. Thank you much. 🇨🇦
Was gay. They found gay porn in his footlocker & insisted that therefore he must be being blackmailed into revealing secrets. He was previously #1 in his class, cryptography. (this is all in the book) After the interview brought back the memories, he became alcoholic, lost his electrical engineering job and died decades ago.
I am so sorry to know that atrocity! I hadn’t had that history and did not know of the book. That’s just gutting on so many levels. I thank you so much, Teri!
The files were released and thoroughly reviewed. With a couple of high profile exceptions like Bill Gates and Larry Summers it appears to be a big nothing burger 🍔
Not sure I’m understanding what you’re referring to, with all due respect. 🇨🇦
‘Xactly. That door swings only in one direction. Gay men paid the price yet Lesbians get top billing in the LGBT movement.
I’ll take the liberty to disagree.
Great essay!
I'm so glad Justinian got his own plague.
Interesting. If you combine this with today's increasingly official support for transphobia (which as always about trans women - those born men - than about trans men), it all seems to come down to policing "inappropriate use of a penis".
The patriarchal sexual double standard operates differently for women than for gay men. (Women get hit on the basis of sex, gay men on the basis of homosexuality.) You briefly allude to the main (visible) angle of attack against lesbians: crackdowns on women who used dildos, or otherwise assume male prerogatives. But on discharges from the military, you've made a categorical error: there were far, far more males than females. If you look at the proportionality of discharges, not the raw numbers, you'll find that lesbians were discharged at much greater rates. This is well known, both for the mid-20th century "witch hunt" purges, and later, after 1980, it remained the pattern. See the General Accounting Office Report of 1992: "For example, between 1980 and 1990, the Navy, representing 27 percent of the active force, accounted for about 51 percent of the discharges; and women, representing 11 percent of the total active Navy force, accounted for 22 percent of those discharged." In other words, lesbians were expelled at double the rate as gay men.
Sorry but are you sure it's not because authoritarians already control women in their societies, where as gay men don't fit neatly into the authoritarian net or whatever so they need extra attention?
I do not understand the last part. What has “transphobia” to do with sexuality?
It was too painful to read all of it. This right there is proof RedPill community is nothing more than immature rage within patriarchy. Because this is what men’s rights activists should focus on. This is a legitimate grievance that touches men alone, discrimination that harms men alone. If the activists for men’s rights were honest, this: gay men being penalized - would be front and center of the discussion as it is alive and well today, pillory is not necessary when vigilantism exists unpunished and targets a dude who, gasp, takes it in the ass. This right here is your proof Red Pill don’t care about men -if they did, this would be their first fucking fight!!! I am a woman. I was hurt by men. I am outraged by this. I am outraged that gay men continue to be treated horrifically. I am aware nowadays lesbians are bullied, murdered and raped for who they are, as all LGBTQ+ people are. But this is proof patriarchy doesn’t give a shit about men. If it did - it would address rights of every man, so it would include gay men. But noooo. Patriarchy is interested only in protecting heteronormative men and women and republicanism only. What an incredible, amazing essay.
This is exactly what I am looking for when I came to Substack. This is true value. This is amazing.
They're scared of gay women! ,;-)
There’s so much to think about in this article.
No wonder so many men try so hard to perform “macho manliness,” since the alternative could be not only social disapproval but all the way up to being deadly.
Patriarchy fears queer men because queer men can really and truly fuck men.
You just explained why GOP conventions are Grindr feasts. They’re gay and subservient AF but don’t trigger the patriarchy rules.